Alexandra Destler, EdM, earned degrees from Harvard, Cornell, and the Sorbonne and serves as an advisor to NIEHS Center on Health and Environment Across the LifeSpan and Mount Sinai Icahn School of Medicine. She remembers being alarmed to learn at Harvard Medical School that the over 85,000+ chemicals that pervade our world are also affecting our children before they are even born, contributing to health effects like birth defects, autism spectrum disorder, asthma, obesity, and cancers in children. Once she became a mother herself, she became very aware of daily decisions and habits that might affect her baby – a daunting decision for anyone, even the highly educated. She founded SafetyNEST, a charismatic, clear, and personalized website designed to promote the environmental health of children, particularly by educating health professionals and parents on prenatal exposures.

This interview has been lightly edited for length and clarity.

Figure 1: Alexandra Destler, EdM, Founder + CEO + Mom

JMK: Hi there, Alexandra!

AD: It’s nice to connect and meet you.

JMK: Good to meet you as well. I'm so glad that Marya [Zlatnik] recommended you to me, and I was taking a look at your website. What a great tool! I wish it had been around when I was first pregnant.

AD: Well, thank you. Yes, I wish it was too!

JMK: So let’s get started. I’d really just want to hear your story. So I've seen that you've been all over. You've been at the Sorbonne. Is that right?

AD: Yes, a long time ago.

JMK: Oh, wow! So I would love for you to tell me your life story.

AD: So perhaps we want to focus on how I got into working on environmental issues?

JMK: Yes. You can tell me whatever you want. But yes – how did you eventually get into these health effects of environmental chemical exposures?

AD: So I would say the early inspirations were probably my parents. I was raised in Europe and lived in a lot of different countries. I was not a military brat, but I had that kind of childhood. My Dad was working in the advertising world, and we moved around a lot. So for me, finding my peace and solace was in nature. We weren’t raised with any particular religion, but a deep reverence for nature was instilled in us. That is the holy territory. That was my early connection at the soulful level as a kid.

Both my parents were intuitively part of the Silent Spring generation – they were aware of chemicals. When we were living on the East coast after Europe, I remember my mom would go into the grocery stores, and this was so embarrassing to me. This is before Whole Foods or anything like that. And she would shame the person who worked in the produce section – talking about how all this is going to poison us because of the pesticides. I was like, “Oh my God, Mom – this is so embarrassing!” And so she was a self-designated activist.

Fast forward, I moved to California after undergrad. I studied journalism and then worked in the art field for a while and was hungry for something that resonated with me more deeply and personally. I ended up getting my first job working for a really interesting healthcare organization that was looking at what really is health? How do you look at health beyond the absence of disease – what is now called the Social Determinants of Health, right? And looking at the broader community, how do you create health?

I ended up running a program called the Healthier Communities Fellowship, which considered all the factors that impact health. I was really struck how at that point, there wasn’t really a conversation about the environment with respect to health. So that captured my attention because I thought, well, of course, environmental degradation affects human health. I was trying to bridge the gap in the health world around the intersection of those two things. And then I ended up working for an environmental organization where again the health piece wasn’t folded in. So I tried to fold it in.

When I went to grad school in the late 90s, I decided to focus on how to drive change around environmental sustainability. How do you really effect change on a personal level, at an organizational level, at a community level, around environmental sustainability? One of the classes I took was through the Harvard Center for Global Health and the Environment. And I focused on the chemical industry for my thesis. I was researching the chemicals and came across the alarming statistic – 85,000 chemicals, and so few tested. And so that really stunned me and stuck with me.

So I came back and worked on various projects. But then I became a mom and thought – wait a minute – so there are all these chemicals – how do I know what is safe? What’s not safe? Where can I go to get that information? I would go to some of the great resources that are out there. The Environmental Working Group (EWG) is wonderful – and the one I was most familiar with. But I felt like this is still hard to navigate. How do I get to the information in a way that is concise and clear and credible and actionable? That was in play as a mom.

I was really struck by living in Berkeley, CA. So many friends, when I would talk about the chemicals, they would look at me like, I don’t know what you are talking about. Even on a very basic level, there wasn’t an existing culture of awareness. There is clearly a gap in the knowledge.

Then a study came out of UCSF around the same time calling out how reproductive health professionals, so your OBs and doulas and midwives, don’t have the training, tools, or expertise to counsel their patients. That was the light bulb – recognizing that we are missing this critical opportunity to educate families at a time when they are so motivated to make change for their pregnancy and the health of their baby. And also, we need to equip reproductive health professionals with counseling tools to enable them to be part of the care experience from the beginning. That is the beginning. I will pause. But that is how I got to starting Safety Nest.

I have worked on other topics in the field, like climate change a long time ago – and other projects with hospitals, also focused on environmental sustainability. But that’s what really drove me – becoming a mom – and then seeing the gap in awareness and this opportunity to address this tidal wave of toxicity that we’re living in.

JMK: Yeah, absolutely. Now what ages are your children?

AD: My kids are now 15 and 20, and the journey doesn’t stop. Now it’s about – I don’t want to say brainwashing them – but thankfully, they understand and respect the need to find personal care products that are vetted and clean – the best that we can do these days.

You know, it gets tiresome to always have to be thinking about that. But that is what we have to do.

JMK: I agree. You were about to say brainwash. I am afraid my kids now range in age from 22 to 27.

AD: Oh wow!

JMK: My daughter who died would have been 31. But I fear that I may have educated myself out of grandchildren – at least for some of them. Ambient in our house is this discussion of the things we are exposed to. And it is scary for young people to think about themselves having children if they are aware of all the risks their children might face.

AD: I think about their reproductive health when they have the laptop sitting on their laps constantly. I’m not frenetic about it because fueling anxiety is not healthy either. I’ve been working on Safety Nest for a while, and sometimes I think, “Why am I doing this?” I have a full-time job on top of it and am a single mom. But, this topic of toxic chemicals is something I can’t walk away from. I know you can appreciate that.

JMK: Yes – that’s exactly the case for me too. One of the scientists I was interviewing asked, well, wait. You’re a full-time professor, right? How do you see this working? Well, I’ve been doing double duty for a long time. Someone has to do it.

AD: Yes – and all of us together – I hope we can awaken more people.

JMK: I hope so. And I feel glad to have an outlet where I can actually reach some readers. Your website reaches a lot of people. Now, you haven't told me that story of how you actually got to putting together the website. You have a very nice array of scientific advisors. And the website itself just looks so good!

AD: So many women I know have been dealing with breast cancer or other kinds of cancer. I think that also has fueled my anger, my passion, my commitment to raise a flag around this issue of toxics in our everyday lives. I just want to mention that because it’s not a trivial part of what motivates me.

JMK: Do you know Sandra Steingraber’s work?

AD: Yes.

JMK: She writes so beautifully about this. I don't know if you've seen the 2010 documentary from her book…I know it quite well, because I show it almost every year to my students, and she says something about, cancer is not an easy disease. It involves a lot of suffering. She’s very vivid explaining: it’s not just numbers on a graph. It’s people – people with stories and people who are suffering and who are otherwise quite invisible.

I was talking to an activist on Cancer Alley about how in her community, people are ashamed about their cancer diagnoses. They feel like they're to blame, like they did this thing. And that's how these companies get away with it.

AD: Yes.

JMK: The shame should be theirs.

AD: Yeah, no – absolutely. And then after watching Dark Waters – to think that these companies are still in operation and to know that not enough has changed.

JMK: It's very discouraging.

AD: So the website – this is the second iteration. I developed a prototype several years ago, and then because of life’s events, it’s been in a frozen zone for a bit. I was fortunate to be encouraged by UCSF, the team at Program for Reproductive Health and the Environment (PRHE) – to submit an application for an HHS award a couple of years ago, and to my complete delight, I was selected as an awardee for Phase 1 and Phase 2 of the Department of HHS Office of Women’s Health EDC Innovator Award Challenge.

I am only sharing that because one, I’m excited about it. But two, it provided resources that I didn’t have in hand to re-think and re-envision the site.

Early on, when I had the idea for Safety Nest, I knew I wanted the site to be credible. So I went to Mt. Sinai and Dr. Shanna Swan – with whom I was on a call yesterday – and I just told her of my idea. I was working in health care. I had some inroads already. So I befriended and got guidance from Shanna and Tracey Woodruff and some others early on. They have been encouraging of my vision. That’s a key part of the Safety Nest offering – to have that credibility. Over time, I met Marya and others. So that’s really been a privilege. Many of the advisors – when I asked, what can I do – I’m just one person -- they encouraged me to just keep going.

But you were going to ask me a question – that might be best.

JMK: Well, if I were going to put together a website, I would first gather the knowledge. But how do you learn how to put together a site? Did you find someone who's good at design? There are a lot of sites out there with good information. They don't all work equally well. I think yours is very nicely designed. How did you get from the interest and your growing expertise and connections to something that seems quite polished?

AD: Well, thank you. And I definitely don't feel like it's done. But the site is informed by a lot of focus groups and talking to women, understanding what’s needed. I don’t want to go to a site that is going to make me feel shamed or scared or overwhelmed about toxic chemicals. So the first piece was wanting to present information in a way that is engaging and empowering.

Figure 2: SafetyNest logo.

It’s also critical for the information to be really credible. All the information on the site for the different rooms – the kitchen, nursery, and bathroom – is Safety Nest exclusive. It is our own content, that has all been vetted by UCSF. In addition to our own content, we’ve aggregated all the most respected external resources: NIEHS, CDC, EPA and other organizations – to bring in the best of the best – and that’s constantly updated every few months. The theme is engaging, not fear-based, credible, and concise.

From the focus groups, we found that some women and men want to go deep into the research, while others just want to know the tips – just tell me what I need to do and know. Some just want the high-level view of what to avoid and what are safer options. There is a robust glossary. If you want to dig deeper, all the resources are linked. Finding the balance was intentional.

A couple of the other pieces that I heard early on and continue to hear are that women and families are in all different places in their lives – economically, lifestyle, how they want to prioritize this, what exposures they have in their home. It was important to have it be personalized to their particular situation. And so we developed this environmental assessment tool called the Better Nest quiz. You can go through and answer eight or nine questions, and it gives you a score based on your exposure to the most egregious chemicals – as well as guidance on how to reduce your biggest exposures. The goal is to get the information that relates to your life and provide guidance on small steps you can take for a healthier home.

JMK: Yes – actually, I took the quiz! I wanted to go back and take it as a different fictional person. I was thinking who I was when I first got pregnant, and then, I wanted to take it with the way I live now.

AD: You can go back and just change your answers – just go click on the answer and change it. It's still a little clunky. I think there's some room for improvement, but the idea hopefully, has value. And we can keep building on it.

One of the other pieces I developed on the site was from talking to Tracey Woodruff about how SafetyNest can be a gateway to policy change. So we created this page called Community Action. How can you get involved? So you can search by state to find organizations focused on Environmental Justice (EJ) issues in particular. It’s meant to help people just know what is out there – for people who may be new to this conversation, to know that there is a pathway to get involved in driving change.

Another feature on the site that I have been testing is a practitioner directory – profiling reproductive health professionals, whether they are focused on fertility or lactation or mental health. As the site grows, I’m hoping that would be an attractive place for practitioners to have a profile and get benefits.

JMK: Yes – I saw that – it looks great.

AD: And one other offering that's in motion right now is we're developing a series of online training modules for health professionals, so for doulas and nurses and so forth, to basically be introduced to this topic. We’re looking at, what are the top 10 changes that can be made in the home and using the SafetyNest as a resource and developing short modules that we’ll have available by the summer. The training is based on in-person trainings that I developed and delivered in the Bay Area with doula networks that are serving at-risk, low-income women. We’ve been using that group as a focus group to help create these trainings.

Figure 3: Safety Nest Website

JMK: I think that is terrific, because there's so much missing on that. That's something that I worked on in my own MPH internship, trying to educate healthcare professionals so they can educate their patients. And it strikes me that you should be able to get continuing medical education credits (CMEs) for that.

AD: Absolutely, we’re hoping to do that exactly – offering CMES to health professionals for these online trainings.

JMK: If you do that, at least some of them will be able to pay. Or even workplaces are willing to pay at times for some of those credits.

By the way, do you know the Children’s Environmental Health Network?

AD: I do know of them, but I haven’t had an opportunity to work with them or speak with them.

JMK: Well, they're wonderful. Nse Witherspoon, the executive director, is in DC. And Kristie Trousdale is on the CHPAC with me right now. They are both amazing people. I profiled Nse on my blog. I know they have developed trainings for CME, and you can find a lot of information on their website.

AD: I’ll definitely look at them. I have a spotlight feature on my website, where I like to interview changemakers that are out there. I’m sure either of them would be wonderful if they would have time to speak with me.

JMK: I would be surprised if they wouldn't. And also the cross fertilization would be excellent because they're very much focused on green childcare facilities. That’s different from what you are doing, yet it seems like you would have a lot in common.

So the next question you’ve already addressed to a degree. You were already very upfront about anxiety. It’s a tough world in which to raise kids. Do you have anything to add to what you've already said about how you frame this topic that's so essential to prevention and productive of guilt and anxiety?

AD: In terms of framing it to others, I try to focus on small steps – there is no way to do it all. And little things can make a big difference. I usually talk about food and pesticides in particular. In addition, switching out cleaning and personal care products in a cost-effective way are low-hanging fruit for the most part. That’s how I broach it with people I meet – or even with stubborn family members. The same with my kids – I try not to be rigid about it. It doesn’t serve anybody to have that anxiety that everything around us is going to cause cancer. So it’s balance – it’s step by step – in terms of framing.

I admit that I catch myself when I go to Target looking at other people’s shopping carts. My kids look at me like, don’t say anything, because sometimes, it’s like, “Oh my God.” But they don’t know, and most of the time I honestly don’t say anything. But it bugs me that people are buying stuff that they don’t know is not good for their kid, right? [Laughing….]

JMK: It's just so funny. The reason I laugh is because you said you were embarrassed when your mom…. There are all kinds of tropes about, you know you are grown up when you start sounding like your own mother.

AD: Yeah – no! Busted – a hundred percent.

JMK: Yes – but that’s a good quality.

AD: Passing the torch, I guess, right?

JMK: For sure. It’s funny. If you are any indication, maybe your kids will grow up and be grateful for the way you raised them. It sounds like you’re grateful that your parents were paying attention to this at a time when very, very few people were.

AD: I think that’s true. And then my older daughter – who is twenty – will sort of call out her younger sister, who’s fifteen, if she sees her using some product from Sephora. Natasha will be like, “that is not a clean product…why are you spending money on it?!”

JMK: Clean is such a good word for it, too. I've been thinking and talking to a lot of people about this, and so often we talk about what's dirty and poisonous and toxic, and it seems like a lot of people are starting to go more for saying, we deserve to have clean water, clean air, clean food, clean soil, and clean products – to cast it in that positive way. Maybe that's smart.

AD: Yes, though it’s also, unfortunately, a little bit of green-washing because a lot of the products that you’ll see at Sephora that are clean contain fragrance – which gets in the way of them really being clean, or at least leaves a big question mark. In the last five years, there is a notable increase in brands that claim that. I will be in the store and hear other women asking – “well, is it clean?” Thank goodness they are asking. We are seeing change, though it’s not all the way there.

JMK: I should definitely check out Sephora. I tend to not buy stuff there, but my daughter does, and so I should just get a lay of the land.

AD: There are some brands there that are on EWG’s Skin Deep, which I think is great. But what else could we do? A lot of the brands are 1’s and 2’s, so I feel like I can live with that.

JMK: Yes – because you have to make choices in the world. By the way, I just wanted to follow up on something. I don’t know if you’ve seen this, but recently, I’ve seen an update on the 80,000 chemicals cited – to 350,000 chemicals and chemical mixtures.

AD: Yes – I have seen that number too.

JMK: Is there a reason you don’t use that number? I found a peer-reviewed citation for it – and I trust the people using that number. But do you have a perspective on that?

AD: I don't. But I'm glad you're asking, because it sounds like a good little weekend research project for me to look at and update it. At the time, it was 80-85,000. So that's why I tend to say that because that was the number that I came across – and it was enough.

JMK: So say you had magic powers. And you could completely recreate U.S. policy regulating environmental chemicals. What would that look like? And then skipping back to reality, how do we bridge what is ideal with what we actually have, which seems so entrenched?

AD: I’m not in the policy world, but I do believe living with a precautionary principle makes a whole lot of sense. If we flipped things around, things would be rigorously tested before going on the market and obviously, there would be very steep and impactful repercussions for those who were not following that pathway. I know that sounds simplistic, but I just feel that the way it is now is flipped. It should be flipped back to a way that serves us all.

JMK: The interesting thing is, I'm taking an ethnographic approach to this project and asking a lot of people the same questions. And the answer to this question is almost unanimous.

AD: Really?

JMK: Yes. Everyone I am interviewing feels that way. Why are we not testing before we put things on the market? And then it's so hard, because now there are so many things grandfathered in, and EPA is revisiting the chemicals, but so slowly. And now, who knows what's going to happen to EPA?

AD: Yes. These chemicals shouldn’t be put into operation if there is any question. They shouldn’t even be going into a product that then needs to be tested – there shouldn’t be that level of time wasted. I’m not a chemist, and I’m sure there are some instances where it is the cocktail of chemicals that is dangerous.

JMK: Well, would that more chemists were aware of the cocktail factor – because my experience is that that is more of a biological awareness. Chemists don’t usually have much training about how chemicals they are synthesizing operate in the body.

All right. In the last book that I wrote, and in this one, too, I have one big question, although they're very different approaches to it. We know we're poisoning our children. We know we're destroying the only climate on the only planet that we know sustains life, and we know there are solutions that could be put in place to solve those problems. But we're not. Why do you think that is?

AD: That’s a big question. Part of it is – as a society, we are very short-term oriented, and we also tend to have a very fragmented view of our relationship to the larger whole. We do not have a systems approach to how we make decisions and even understand our place in the world. If we were thinking about seven generations – or understanding that we are one with where we live on this beautiful planet – I don’t think we would be destroying it. That’s a philosophical, spiritual level of awareness that many people have. But the majority of those making decisions are driven by short-term gain and capitalism.

JMK: Yes – I could not agree with you more, of course, about capitalism. I don’t know how we unravel that gordian knot.

AD: But I’m not a pessimist. I don’t think we are in a good situation at all, and since earlier this week [January 20, 2025], it’s not going to just get better – not at all. But I do get a lot of hope and excitement when I see things like – I don’t know if you are familiar with Alison Carlson – Safer Made – part of Forsythia, a VC fund supporting companies creating fully compostable and benign alternatives to plastic and other kinds of chemicals. They are investing in new materials. I can forward you their newsletter – Safer Made. To me, that is so exciting and gives me a lot of hope for innovation and new ways of doing things. There are ways we can make products that are just smarter.

JMK: I agree. That is really helpful. I think of solutions like rewilding and green chemistry as well.

So looking into your crystal ball, what do you think will be the status of children’s health in the year 2050?

AD: It’s such a tough question. I’m afraid it is going to get worse before it gets better. The signs point to more cases of children’s cancer, infertility, the lifespan of disease related to toxic chemicals that we will see more and more of. I think it is going to get worse for the next ten or so years. But I will be hopeful that out of necessity, there will also be growth in green chemistry and awareness and denial of not having safer choices. More and more consumers will demand clean water, clean air, clean products. At the end of the day, I will stay in the hopeful camp, but it's gonna get worse before we get there. I'm curious what kinds of answers you're getting on that. Are people overall thinking it's just going to get bad and worse. And it's all horrible or….

JMK: There is a gamut of responses. Many people say they want to be hopeful, and then they'll give a very dark view, because I think, as you say, that's what the science is telling us right now. The trend lines are telling us that it's getting worse and worse. And why would we think it would not continue to get worse and worse? I do myself hang on to successes – we turned around smoking and lead relatively quickly, but by relatively quickly, I mean a matter of decades. So I think you're right that it’s going to take a while. Some people hesitate to answer the question because they don't feel like they can say anything hopeful, and then some people say, well, by 2050, we'll either have solved it, or basically we’ll be done for.

AD: It will all be gone.

JMK: Lost to climate change.

And you are in California, right?

AD: Yes – I’m in Northern California.

JMK: Wonderful. That's a beautiful area. And what great institutions; the researchers at Berkeley and UCSF are just outstanding.

AD: There are a lot of inspirations, heroes, legends, in this area and in the environmental field as well. I had the opportunity early on to work with Huey Johnson, who was one of the founders of the Trust for Public Land, along with some other people, like Marty Rosen, creating this idea of land trusts in Northern California protecting in perpetuity a lot of the open space that we have. I worked with Paul Hawken, who was early on in terms of thinking about the ecology of commerce.

JMK: I love that guy – his Project Drawdown and Regeneration Nexus.

AD: He got really concerned and passionate about hair color, seeing so many women getting cancer. He just thought, there's got to be a connection with women that are dying their hair. And anyway, he's created this company – I don’t know if you have heard of his Hair Prints, his hair dye company. It’s brilliant. I’ve been using it for several years now, and you can eat it. It’s super clean if you are ever interested as a customer on that front.

JMK: As long as I don’t have to go on the job market again, I’m just going to let it go gray.

AD: Anyway, it is a special area.

JMK: For sure. I admire Tyrone Hayes at Berkeley quite a lot as well.

AD: And Arlene Blum at the Green Science Policy Institute.

JMK: I don’t know about her.

AD: You should definitely talk with her. She was one of the first to fight the flame retardants in children's pajamas and was instrumental in getting the chemicals taken out. She was a first in a lot of different areas.

JMK: I remember my children in their cute little pajamas, and at the time they were imbued with flame retardants. When they started to get a little older, then we knew better. But we had learned the hard way by losing a child to these kinds of exposures. We became hyper aware.

So that is actually a good segue to my last question, which is, is there anything you want to ask me about the project or my experience?

AD: Absolutely. I'll do some research, because I haven't read your other books, and I'd be really interested in learning more about you and your work. But I'd love to hear a little bit about this particular book.

JMK: Probably the easiest thing is to look up my blog – and I'm on Substack now. It's called Poisoning Children, which is also going to be the title of the new book if they let me get away with it.

The acquisitions editor at Johns Hopkins said, you know I have to tell you I have a reputation for doing dark books, but they said this one takes the cake. But he likes the title. He said it's like throwing a bomb, and I'm pretty certain from early feedback that it's going to get under the skin of industry, which is also something I would be happy to do.

I started as a science undergrad at University of Iowa, working in a neurobiology lab, and then spring of my senior year, it was a choice between medical school and grad school in literature, which I had originally just done because it seemed fun, and because I thought it would make me look well-rounded for medical school. But then I ended up choosing that for the PhD. We moved to the Chicago area, and I was a happy professor, had my two children. And then Katherine got cancer that we have every reason to believe was caused by exposure to chlorpyrifos, first sprayed in an apartment even before I was pregnant. I was not aware – I thought, oh, no, this can't be in our food. I cleaned it up, and it was absorbed through my skin. I was very sick, acutely ill from the exposure.

And then we put the pieces together after Katherine’s diagnosis that our city had been spraying chlorpyrifos for mosquitoes the whole time, and we had not known it. Even while she was fighting cancer, I started turning back to my science background. My husband at the time was a chemical engineer.

You can never know for sure, but we have every reason to believe that the major reason that she developed leukemia, and that she then afterwards relapsed, when, in fact, she had the less aggressive forms of the disease, was these recurrent exposures. She had two bone marrow transplants, but she got sick at four and died at eight.

AD: How grueling. It’s just terrible.

JMK: Yes. You don't get over a loss like that. But of course, I wanted to protect my surviving children. We adopted two children from Russia afterwards. I didn't feel like I should be pregnant again, because I attributed some of her cancer risk to my exposures, and I had been exposed subsequently as well.

I started the book in 2012 and realized I needed the credentials to publish it. So I got the master's in public health at Benedictine University, a couple of classes at a time. Everything's been opening up from there. And now I have made a lot of friends in this new world. And it's been a real privilege and joy to meet people who are like-minded philosophically – like you just described – people who are also doing things in the world to try to protect children. The story is dark in many ways, but in that regard, I think it is a ray of sunshine, and I hope other people will feel that too.

AD: Thank you for sharing that. So you are continuing to look to interview people who are working in this space, as well as families that have been personally impacted by disease or death.

JMK: Yes. I'll summarize very briefly. I write about my daughter's story, and cancer; a dear friend whose child has autism, which she also attributes to pesticide exposure; and then I am still looking for stories of people whose children have suffered from birth defects, asthma, and autoimmune disease, as well as climate change impacts.

I lay out the science and do a review of literature pretty quickly and for a fairly general audience. And then I also tie in the experts and researchers and let them explain the research in their words, which is a lot more readable than a science paper. I've been very touched that these people were working on this problem all along, and if they had more power in the world, it wouldn't be this way. So we are like-minded people on these other ends of this problem, who rarely talk to each other. And yet I think that conversation is so important, and if you're trying to convey to the general public the story, then I think you need to show that real people are truly suffering because of these decisions.

It doesn't have to be this way. And look at all these amazing people who have done the research and have solutions and know where we should go on this.

AD: That’s exciting. I love how you are framing it.

JMK: Thank you!

AD: I would love to read the book and share it in a Spotlight on Safety Nest.

JMK: Thank you. And I am going to have a little toolkit at the end and will put Safety Nest in there. I want people who are going to be parents, or who are parents, to pick up this book and have the tools to tackle this problem as best they can.

AD: Yes – wonderful.

JMK: You are doing such a great part of this, and I thank you.

AD: I do what I can in the time I have, which is what we are all doing. It’s just great to be connected with another person, connecting to the web, because I think it reminds us that there is progress and that we can support each other in moving the needle forward.

JMK: Absolutely. I tell my students, knowledge is power. Ideas can change the world.

AD: Well, I hope my story has been in some way useful to you.

JMK: Very much so, and it's just been a pleasure to talk to you, too. I wish we lived closer, and we could have coffee or something. I’m in Chicago.

AD: Well, that is not a place that I go to often. But if you happen to come to California for anything, please do call me. I'd love to meet you.

JMK: That would be lovely. And if you do know of any families who are willing to share stories, anonymously or with real names, please let me know. I want people to understand what it means to have a child who has birth defects – and how that affects the whole family.

AD: I'll definitely think about it. I don't have anybody that comes directly to mind. But I'll sit with that, and anything that comes into mind or across my email, I'll be sure to forward to you.

JMK: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much. I'm a little behind on transcribing interviews into blogs, and the semester is in its full throes. But within a few weeks, I expect I will get to you a draft blog.

AD: Sounds great. Enjoy your weekend!

JMK: Thanks – you too!